Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: wt. differences ?
As I recently neared the end of my last case of 1 1/2 Swiss powder, I opened a new case to see what differences there may be between the lots. My original powder-measure setting was for 86.0 grains and I didnot change the setting. The new lot threw 87.0 grains. Is this within the "normal" range between lots ?
The variance is due to a difference in granular densities of the powder. Each lot will vary as will each brand will vary in its density. When loading by volume for a muzzle loader this is usually not much of an issue as you have a set load volume and if you were loading by weight, any volume change wouldn't be an issue as you have an entire barrel to load. But with cartridges, as we all know, you are restricted in your volume size and any change in density can become critical to your load as the volume changes. With some black powders this isn't a problem as you just compress the powder. Swiss, though, doesn't like compression.
All of that long wind being said, a 1-2 grain variance is acceptable. The real test is velocity and of course accuracy. If everything runs as usual, no problem.
If there is a large density variance, then you have to make adjustments to the volume size of your load and then your load should be fine.
Does any of this make sense? I spent 2 days working in the garden in the sun and I think my brain got a bit boiled! _________________
Kirkland, I bow to your expertise in this matter, however I do have a little different take on this subject:
I have been loading, shooting and competing at BPCR for more years than I care to admit. I have always loaded Swiss as well as some of the other powders out there until I learned that for the serious target shooter there really is only one powder. When I first loaded with Swiss I followed the spin going around that Swiss didn't need nor want compression. That is until I found out the truth for myself, usually the best way to learn anything. Now this method is mine and mine alone, when it comes to loading and shooting in competiton I take my time and the quality of my ammo very serious.
I have always weighed each and every charge I drop tube into a shell, for me a powder measure only serves the purpose of dropping the powder into the scales pan. Now weighing each charge sounds like I am loading by weight. Sounds like it but it isn't so --- I actually load by volume. I determine the volume by the height of the predetermined powder colume in the case. I then load this volume into a dozen cases, and use these to determine the weight ( FOR THAT DAYS LOAD ) by weighing all of them and using this as a average. I then mix a min of two lbs. of Swiss 2fg powder together, more if I am going to load a huge quanity of shells. Another words I want all of my powder for that day to be in the same "batch". Now even taking these extreme measures my powder colume height varies to some small degree, maybe only a few thousands maybe more on a given day. If I used " no compression" I would be stuck with a different OAL for each shell that was a few thousands off. Might not sound like much HUH? But on race day I want each and every loaded shell to be as close to each other as I can get them. So I have been then compressing these loads .035 just as a means of evening everything up and giving me a consistant OAL. This very small amount of compression has never hurt my Swiss loads and I test and shoot one hell of a lot of shells a week.
Just another take on the compression thing. Now as I said I don't say this is the way for "YOU" to load, but is the way I am going to load.
Gunny _________________ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in one pretty and well preserved piece. But to slide in broadside, worn out and throughly used up shouting "WOW" what a ride. In this persuit I have been very succesful!!
Hey, if it works, who's to criticize. While I am in no way the best to discuss the perfect load, (learned that today when the Rams and Turkeys ate my lunch), I do receive a lot of information from many shooters. In general, most shooters have reported little to no compression works best in their tests. A few are the exception by finding positive results with compression. I scratch my head and simply accept this as part of the black powder mystique. There are so many things about BP that simply doesn't make sense but work. So, if it works, don't change a thing! _________________
From the tone of your response I maybe need to clarify my response. I see today on these talk forums for BPCR dozen of folks who seem to feel that there way is the only way. You "must" anneal to have a accurate load---- You "must" neck turn all of your cases to have an accurate load----The only alloy is 20-1---- the only alloy is 30-1--- Oh no wheel weights are the best no doubt about it---- My special Dandy Dolittle bullet is with out a doubt the best and most accurate there is----- You must compress brand X powder to make it shoot----- OH and by the way Brand XXZ powder "SHOULD" not be compressed at all----- and on and on. There are those who want to make the feeding of one of these old smoke poles Black Magic. And it just aint so. Getting an accurate load in any of these BPCR rifles can be just as simply or as difficult as you want to make it. And that applys to just about every aspect of loading a BPCR rifle, including compression. There is little doubt in my mind that loading Swiss powder without "ANY" compression that is NONE will work and work well. I know I shot myself into Master Class in BPCRS in three matches, that was my first three matches. I was using Swiss powder and no compression, and I did my load work-up and put in the trigger time before that first match to be able to do that. But as I gained some experiance with the loading of Black Powder in a CASE I personally found that keeping everything as simple and as cocsistant as possible was "probably" the best way to go. In my testing, and I shoot almost every day, I have found that OAL can be very important to that consistancy. The only reason I compress Swiss any at all is to maintain that consistant OAL.
So I guess the REAL question is does Swiss require compression to shoot well? To that question I would personally answer a definate "Probably Not"
Gunny _________________ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in one pretty and well preserved piece. But to slide in broadside, worn out and throughly used up shouting "WOW" what a ride. In this persuit I have been very succesful!!
Joined: Dec 14, 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Clute, Texas
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: A visual comparison of Goex vs Schuetzen powders
I worked for the chemical industry and have made side by side comparisons if these powders. It appears that Goex is precipitated, centerfuged, then dried. It gives a crystal type grain. Schuetzen has a "popcorn" look. To me, that indicates that it is dried in a fluidized bed.
Are my observations correct, or is this a trade secret? _________________ Kenneth E Springs Greenwood Longrifles Blackpowder Director Greenwood Gun Club 341 N. Shanks Clute Texas 77531
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: A visual comparison of Goex vs Schuetzen powders
Ken wrote:
I worked for the chemical industry and have made side by side comparisons if these powders. It appears that Goex is precipitated, centerfuged, then dried. It gives a crystal type grain. Schuetzen has a "popcorn" look. To me, that indicates that it is dried in a fluidized bed.
Are my observations correct, or is this a trade secret?
Can't speak for Goex beyond what I've "heard" but I'm pretty sure it is accurate. They tumble glaze their powder (same as the Swiss/Schuetzen) except they also blow hot air into the drum to dry as they glaze. Our powder is glazed first and then placed on trays in a drying house similar to the old Roman baths. The principle here is built into the walls and floor are pipes where steam is pumped thus heating up the house to a specific temperature. _________________
Joined: Dec 14, 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Clute, Texas
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject:
A-HA, that explains the difference in the surface characteristics. The steam purge forces the liquid out of the granules causing the texture (popcorn effect). Higher surface area means a faster ignition. I have found that Schuetzen FF performs almost exactly the same as Goex FFF, given the same rifle, cap, and load. The impact off the bench is the same which translates to an equal breach pressure at ignition. Therefore it follows that any given Schuetzen powder is a "hotter" powder than the same granulation of Goex. _________________ Kenneth E Springs Greenwood Longrifles Blackpowder Director Greenwood Gun Club 341 N. Shanks Clute Texas 77531
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